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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9817
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Posted - 2015.05.13 22:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
PLEASE READ SECOND POST BEFORE RESPONDING
Brace yourselves, for what you are about to hear will shake up the very fabric on your known reality. It involves correcting a glaring imbalance that no one seems to talk about so therefore Old CCP would never correct themselves, and maybe something even New CCP won't care much for because their data doesn't reflect anything major (though I presume mostly because people are stubborn and want to use the suit they want to use regardless and make it almost work somehow).
What I want to talk about is the trade-off between base stats on all dropsuits and why Amarr suits are too slow and Minmatar suits are too fast.
Current Dropsuits
When you examine the base stats of our current dropsuits, you can see where old CCP got lazy and hoped for the best. The basic theme in Gallente and Caldari would be the model, and Amarr would get extra HP in exchange for less speed and Minmatar would get less HP in exchange for more speed. However, instead of doing this on a case by case basic, Old CCP basically applied the same buffs and nerfs to all (i.e. all Amarr dropsuits were made 0.20 m/s slower across the board besides logi, despite that this effect is drastically different on a scout than a sentinel).
Let's have a deeper look:
Scouts: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 200 HP, 5.45 m/s
Amarr: 230 HP, 5.25 m/s
Minmatar: 170, 5.65 m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 30 more HP for 0.20 m/s speed (3.67% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.20 m/s speed for 30 HP
Assaults: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 430 HP, 5.00 m/s
Amarr: 460 HP, 4.80 m/s
Minmatar: 400, 5.3 m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 30 more HP for 0.20 m/s speed (4.00% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.30 m/s speed for 30 HP
Logis: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 270HP, 4.7 m/s
Amarr: 300HP, 4.55 m/s
Minmatar: 240, 5 m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 30 more HP for 0.15 m/s speed (3.19% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.30 m/s speed for 30 HP
Commandos: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 650 HP, 4.05 m/s
Amarr: 680 HP, 3.85 m/s
Minmatar: 620, 4.25m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 30 more HP for 0.20 m/s speed (a 4.94% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.20 m/s speed for 30 HP
Sentinels: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 915 HP, 3.85 m/s
Amarr: 960 HP, 3.65 m/s
Minmatar: 870, 4.05 m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 45 more HP for 0.20 m/s speed (5.19% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.20 m/s speed for 45 HP
Overall Reflections: Giving each suit a standard 2.0 m/s speed penalty for Amarr while giving Minmatar varying 2.0 - 3.0 m/s speed increases creates awkward situations where the a Minmatar suit is faster and has more HP than the Amarr role one lighter. For example, the Minmatar Assault is 0.05 m/s faster than the Amarr scout and has 170 more HP. The Minmatar Sentinel is 0.20 m/s faster than the Amarr Commando and has 190 more HP. This stat lines really should not exist and there should be clear divides between the roles.
Proposed Stats For Suits
There are two obvious ways to adjust these stats. One is by tweaking the HP, and the other is by tweaking speed. Given that changes in HP tend to spawn loads of other complaints, I suggest we amend this by speed. So what do we have in game to compare movement speed and HP? Armor plates.
Standard Armor Plate: 85 HP for 3% speed nerf.
Enhanced Armor Plate: 110 HP for 4% speed nerf.
Complex Armor Plate: 135 HP for 5% speed nerf.
Or in other words,
Stadard Armor Plate: 28.3 HP per 1% speed nerf
Enhanced Armor Plate: 27.5 HP per 1% speed nerf
Complex Armor Plate: 25 HP per 1% speed nerf
So for simplicity, let's say every 30 HP is 1% speed nerf from the Gallente and Caldari model, meaning all suits will be adjusted by 1% except for Sentinels who will be adjsuted by 1.5% because they fluctuate by 45 HP. So the new stats will look like this:
Scouts
Gallente and Caldari: 5.45 m/s (same)
Amarr: 5.40 m/s (5.45 * 0.99)
Minmatar: 5.51 m/s (5.45 / 0.99)
Assaults
Gallente and Caldari: 5.00 m/s
Amarr: 4.95 m/s
Minmatar: 5.05 m/s
Logis
Gallente and Caldari: 4.70 m/s
Amarr: 4.65 m/s
Minmatar: 4.75 m/s
Commandos
Gallente and Caldari: 4.05 m/s
Amarr: 4.01 m/s
Minmatar: 4.09 m/s
Sentinels
Gallente and Caldari: 3.85 m/s
Amarr: 3.79 m/s
Minmatar: 3.91 m/s
Overal Reflections: The roles are no longer overlapping in terms of speed thus making them more distinctive, and the base HP and speed are more logically balanced based on a set ratio.
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9817
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Posted - 2015.05.13 22:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
I am open to all feedback and criticism, but please come with a response that is accompanied by reasoning and is not anecdotal.
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9818
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Posted - 2015.05.14 00:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy.
I don't know why I expected any other response. CCP Rattati is the hero we need AND the hero we deserve.
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9832
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Posted - 2015.05.14 14:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
If we eliminate the suits to one per role per race, you can simply up the costs of other gear appropriately and get fittings roughly equal in price as they are now. Considering the major thing holding most players back from running maxed suits all the time is ISK, have you seen how expensive APEX fits can be? I dint think there's even a need to mess with CPU and PG, just give everyone all the slots and CPU PG from the start and up all the other prices
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9832
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Posted - 2015.05.14 15:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
nelo kazuma wrote:You forgot to factor in the mins stamina recovery. That and its movement and running speed are major factors when even considering any changes. Amar should be slower since armor plating is a higher resistant hp I agree their. which is why they get more stamina to suit to make up for that.
In my opinion no suit should have any kinda of movement speed bonus so until that is taken from minmattars they should not see an increase in speed whatsoever to sprint. Gal and cal should be equal so according to your numbers your are correct there.
I'm suggesting lowering Minmatar speed, there better stamina stats only increase the imbalance. Amarr getting more stamina is of no counter benefit as the other suits still go much farther and quicker in one full stamina sprint than Amarr. Again, the 30 extra hp isn't worth the high percentage movement speed penalty that losing 0.20 m/s creates.
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9837
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Posted - 2015.05.14 16:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Well I'll ask a couple questions. What's the benefit in having the same slot layout across all tiers vs only having one dropsuit with one slot layout?
Does a standard suit count as a separate suit vs an advance or prototype suit? Meaning are three unique caldari assault suits each with different slot layouts and they all go into memory and get loaded when needed or is there one unique caldari assault suit that gets loaded with different settings?
I'm asking this because depending on your answer, wouldn't tiercide provide a performance boost and free up resources?
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity. I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring: Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels? Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers? This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model? [Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot. this is pretty clever
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9839
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Posted - 2015.05.14 16:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Another thing that can be done, or two actually, are faction fitting bonuses, i really like them because they can be seen like a mini wow set bonus, and more efficacy bonuses.
This is also all in relation to our work on an improved progression design.
What if SKINs referenced your skill level in that suits role skill applied an mini bonus like that? This way you could add extra value to the SKINs while also opening up more interesting avenues such as pirate themed bonuses.
Blood Raider skins could provide bonuses in reducing recharge time on equipment and mods within a set range (neutralize recharge of cloaks, scanners, vehicle active mods). Perhaps use scan range for set ranges and degrees.
Guristas skins could provide shield resistance bonuses
Serpentis skins could reduce enemies movement speed. Again, perhaps use scan range for set ranges and degrees.
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9840
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Posted - 2015.05.14 17:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:Disclosure: my favourite fitting is Min Scout with knives, and I speed tank it whenever I can.
I do not like the idea of reducing the MinScout's speed. It's one of its advantages for closing the distance before its prey notices via EWAR inner ring. That and simply going fast.
I think you may kill the Minja with these suggestions.
On a broader note, why make changes that make suits less diverse? I would much prefer to see a wider range of speeds per class-role, so maybe your discounted idea of not changing HP should be revisited?
I wouldn't like to see less diversity because of a theoretical (and perhaps it would too be borne out in discussions) resistance to making changes one way over another. Doesn't the longer-term application of this logic bring us to every suit being almost the same? Let's not do that.
Would you be ok with giving Amarr more HP and Minmatar less HP (even the min scout) in favor of retaining current speed values? Because currently the mix of speed and HP is not balanced as I detailed.
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
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Posted - 2015.05.14 17:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:It's a good idea as long as minmatar and amarr suits have large enough speed differences.
Overlaps are bad, but a 1% difference is tiny in comparison to the 3-5% we have currently.
I personally prefer diversity, even if it is more logical to use armor/speed ratios (i.e. letting the amarr logi keep the sidearm instead of giving it the same equipment layout as the gallente)
But yes, essentially CCP pulled these numbers out of their ass quickly, and these are some of the finer details we can start looking at now that a lot of other issues have been fixed.
One final thing to note is that Assault and Logi speeds may be swapped here within the next few months. Just something to consider.
Again, if you want to keep these more drastic speed differences would you be ok with mute drastic hp differences opposed to +-30 HP?
I agree logis and assaults should probably switch speeds. Also the case with the Amarr logi wouldn't be so bad if we did flatten the slots such that it has more than two equipment at standard.
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2015.05.14 19:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:The more I think about these normalisation ideas, the more I wonder if it's just to make the numbers symmetrical and it actually won't achieve better balance. I think I-Shayz-I may be talking about a similar thing. Not really sure you can debit and credit base units of speed and HP in a linear fashion and say "there, that must be balanced because the figures are balanced". So again, I would draw you to Kaeru's post. Kaeru Nayiri wrote:
I also want to point out that Rattati's old model of making speed and HP inversely proportionate seems perfect to me. In such a system anything that increases health could potentially have an effect on speed. If it worked like that, the base stats wouldn't matter so much and the very concept of speed vs health becomes a player choice rather than a suit design.
Though surely you can see how giving the Amarr sentinel +45 HP and -0.20 speed isn't the same as giving the Amarr scout +30 HP and -0.20 speed
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9864
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Posted - 2015.05.14 22:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
While true tiericide would make APEX suits less appealing, they would still come with free prefit mods which is something.
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9997
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Posted - 2015.05.15 18:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value.
Amarr are the good guys
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9998
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Posted - 2015.05.15 18:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. Then why do the Armor and Shield skills add percentages instead of a flat additional value?
Good point, but all modules for HP are value based, most importantly the ones that relate to speed. It's all about how many more bullets you can afford to take due to being slower.
Amarr are the good guys
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